Comments on: Dealing with “The Hitler Problem” http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/ The Best Strategy Game Blog in My House Mon, 21 May 2012 20:36:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: The Poisoned Sponge http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-197946 The Poisoned Sponge Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:26:13 +0000 http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/#comment-197946 Hey guys, Firstly, thanks for linking to my article, it's certainly traveled further than I ever thought it might. It's certainly very vilifying to see it stimulate such discussion. I've now shedded the name 'Poisoned Sponge' as a writing name because it was just far too awkward to see people quoting me under it, so thanks for that too. As far as the article goes, I can see a lot of people drawing up either existing RTS games set around WW2 that don't deal with the whole issue I raised, claiming that that makes it a moot point. Really, my argument pretty much only applied to the Total War franchise, as they have you playing a country, rather than a commander; the commander doesn't have anything to do (usually) with the acts of government beyond carrying out his orders, whereas the ruler of the country has to deal with all the things within their power. @Primemover, I actually mentioned Defcon in the article, and by no means am I criticising CoH, which I think is an excellent series of games. Again, this is a problem pretty much unique to Total War, so CoH doesn't really apply. Thanks for the attention guys, and feel free to comment on The Reticule whenever you like, we love to discuss! Phill Cameron Hey guys,

Firstly, thanks for linking to my article, it’s certainly traveled further than I ever thought it might. It’s certainly very vilifying to see it stimulate such discussion.

I’ve now shedded the name ‘Poisoned Sponge’ as a writing name because it was just far too awkward to see people quoting me under it, so thanks for that too.

As far as the article goes, I can see a lot of people drawing up either existing RTS games set around WW2 that don’t deal with the whole issue I raised, claiming that that makes it a moot point. Really, my argument pretty much only applied to the Total War franchise, as they have you playing a country, rather than a commander; the commander doesn’t have anything to do (usually) with the acts of government beyond carrying out his orders, whereas the ruler of the country has to deal with all the things within their power.

@Primemover, I actually mentioned Defcon in the article, and by no means am I criticising CoH, which I think is an excellent series of games. Again, this is a problem pretty much unique to Total War, so CoH doesn’t really apply.

Thanks for the attention guys, and feel free to comment on The Reticule whenever you like, we love to discuss!

Phill Cameron

]]> By: JonathanStrange http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-197637 JonathanStrange Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:26:16 +0000 http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/#comment-197637 Sometimes, I can't bring myself to raze the last Orc city - it's troubling to eliminate all trace of any civilization - so I usually spare them. Bloody Orcs! Sometimes, I can’t bring myself to raze the last Orc city – it’s troubling to eliminate all trace of any civilization – so I usually spare them. Bloody Orcs!

]]> By: Primemover http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-197633 Primemover Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:15:42 +0000 http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/#comment-197633 I have always felt that the these "political" (more appropriately: moral) issues have their place when it fits into the context of the game. To "not include" them because of the moral backlash that their inclusion may provoke is secondary and separate only if their inclusion allows the game to fulfill the designers' vision of how the game would play. For example, it sounds as if CoH is criticized by PS (have not read their comments, so I may be wrong) for not addressing an issue like "genocide." The spirit of CoH is in the story of one faction that historically, had no involvement/experience in genocide or other the other known atrocities. To arbitrarily have included it detracts from the essence of the game (as well as risks historical inaccuracy in a game that appears to be trying to stick to it). I think a game that "coldly" addresses what is a moral political issue of the 20th century is Defcon. Each time you nuke a city, a stat like "1.2 million killed!" pops up. I know I felt the visceral reaction of that the first few times I saw it. It certainly makes me think about the morality behind nuclear war. I did not want to play the game any less though, and it served (appropriately) to motivate me to better execute the primary tasks of the game, which is to be a better commander in chief. If I want to succeed in a game like Defcon, that is what must be done, as a victory of peace (arguably, the better "moral" choice) is not an option to completing the game. Overall, I think the issue of glossing over atrocities in games is way off. I have always felt that the these “political” (more appropriately: moral) issues have their place when it fits into the context of the game. To “not include” them because of the moral backlash that their inclusion may provoke is secondary and separate only if their inclusion allows the game to fulfill the designers’ vision of how the game would play. For example, it sounds as if CoH is criticized by PS (have not read their comments, so I may be wrong) for not addressing an issue like “genocide.” The spirit of CoH is in the story of one faction that historically, had no involvement/experience in genocide or other the other known atrocities. To arbitrarily have included it detracts from the essence of the game (as well as risks historical inaccuracy in a game that appears to be trying to stick to it).
I think a game that “coldly” addresses what is a moral political issue of the 20th century is Defcon. Each time you nuke a city, a stat like “1.2 million killed!” pops up. I know I felt the visceral reaction of that the first few times I saw it. It certainly makes me think about the morality behind nuclear war. I did not want to play the game any less though, and it served (appropriately) to motivate me to better execute the primary tasks of the game, which is to be a better commander in chief. If I want to succeed in a game like Defcon, that is what must be done, as a victory of peace (arguably, the better “moral” choice) is not an option to completing the game. Overall, I think the issue of glossing over atrocities in games is way off.

]]> By: George Geczy http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-197591 George Geczy Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:58:13 +0000 http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/#comment-197591 In our original design for Supreme Ruler 2010, we had a section on supporting terrorism - this was before Sept 11th... In the "Post 9/11" world there was discussion on our forums and our blogs about whether the terrorist element should or should not be maintained. As it turns out, a number of redesigns resulted in those features not making the game for many other reasons, but it was an interesting discussion. One thing that SR2010 and SR2020 does is report to the player the number of civilian casualties caused, and also affect world relationships based on those factors. And, like in the real world, those news reports and public perceptions are very easy to ignore. In our original design for Supreme Ruler 2010, we had a section on supporting terrorism – this was before Sept 11th… In the “Post 9/11″ world there was discussion on our forums and our blogs about whether the terrorist element should or should not be maintained. As it turns out, a number of redesigns resulted in those features not making the game for many other reasons, but it was an interesting discussion.

One thing that SR2010 and SR2020 does is report to the player the number of civilian casualties caused, and also affect world relationships based on those factors. And, like in the real world, those news reports and public perceptions are very easy to ignore.

]]> By: JonathanStrange http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-197555 JonathanStrange Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:32:54 +0000 http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/#comment-197555 Ender Wiggin, please feel free to comment. Ender Wiggin, please feel free to comment.

]]> By: Kalle http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-197547 Kalle Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:02:07 +0000 http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/01/19/dealing-with-the-hitler-problem/#comment-197547 The "left" idolizes communism? Technically I guess you can still find de facto communists who worship Marxism-Leninism somewhere, but they're petty rare, so don't act like a jerk and lump everyone who doesn't happen to agree with your particular politics in with the Stalinists. Even when the Soviet Union was alive and well the communists only made up a small fraction of the "left". These days the only idolizing going on takes place in Russia, which should know better you'd think, where the current non-socialist authoritarian regime thinks it's a good idea to promote the glory of the previous socialist authoritarian regime and remake Stalin into a great man who threw out the foreign invaders. The “left” idolizes communism? Technically I guess you can still find de facto communists who worship Marxism-Leninism somewhere, but they’re petty rare, so don’t act like a jerk and lump everyone who doesn’t happen to agree with your particular politics in with the Stalinists.

Even when the Soviet Union was alive and well the communists only made up a small fraction of the “left”. These days the only idolizing going on takes place in Russia, which should know better you’d think, where the current non-socialist authoritarian regime thinks it’s a good idea to promote the glory of the previous socialist authoritarian regime and remake Stalin into a great man who threw out the foreign invaders.

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