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	<title>Comments on: No King But Caesar &#8211; An Epilogue</title>
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	<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/</link>
	<description>The Best Strategy Game Blog in My House</description>
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		<title>By: Troy</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/comment-page-1/#comment-145381</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/#comment-145381</guid>
		<description>Grant:

I&#039;ve written a lot about diplomacy on this site. Check out the rest of the blog and let me know what you think.

Sneakiness is not all there is to diplomacy, of course. It is the whole point of &lt;i&gt;Diplomacy&lt;/i&gt; the game, which is why, as I noted in my review of the Paradox version that that particular game is probably not feasible with an AI opponent. It is entirely about trust and deceit and requires a human that understands the nature of obligation beyond a pure zero sum model. &lt;i&gt;Diplomacy&lt;/i&gt; requires cooperation, &lt;i&gt;Risk&lt;/i&gt; does not.

But you can have a good diplomatic model without necessarily making the computer a good diplomat. You can use a simple like/dislike system like that in &lt;i&gt;Imperialism&lt;/i&gt;, for example. The &lt;i&gt;Civ IV&lt;/i&gt; diplomatic engine is quite good because the pluses and minuses are all out in the open and obvious. Soren Johnson&#039;s argument about cheating AI in &lt;i&gt;Civ &lt;/i&gt; notwithstanding, transparency is probably more important to the player than intelligence. I think there is a risk in adding too many variables to a diplomatic model.

My point in this epilogue, though, is that, so far, ancient strategy games have just accepted war as the default relationship in the period which was not necessarily the case. This has been, admittedly, an issue for many strategy games. One of the beauties of RTS games is that they assume the conflict and don&#039;t try to pretend that there are other choices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written a lot about diplomacy on this site. Check out the rest of the blog and let me know what you think.</p>
<p>Sneakiness is not all there is to diplomacy, of course. It is the whole point of <i>Diplomacy</i> the game, which is why, as I noted in my review of the Paradox version that that particular game is probably not feasible with an AI opponent. It is entirely about trust and deceit and requires a human that understands the nature of obligation beyond a pure zero sum model. <i>Diplomacy</i> requires cooperation, <i>Risk</i> does not.</p>
<p>But you can have a good diplomatic model without necessarily making the computer a good diplomat. You can use a simple like/dislike system like that in <i>Imperialism</i>, for example. The <i>Civ IV</i> diplomatic engine is quite good because the pluses and minuses are all out in the open and obvious. Soren Johnson&#8217;s argument about cheating AI in <i>Civ </i> notwithstanding, transparency is probably more important to the player than intelligence. I think there is a risk in adding too many variables to a diplomatic model.</p>
<p>My point in this epilogue, though, is that, so far, ancient strategy games have just accepted war as the default relationship in the period which was not necessarily the case. This has been, admittedly, an issue for many strategy games. One of the beauties of RTS games is that they assume the conflict and don&#8217;t try to pretend that there are other choices.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant Gould</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/comment-page-1/#comment-145376</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Gould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/#comment-145376</guid>
		<description>I do think that AI is what holds back diplomacy in games.  It&#039;s easier to write an AI to move units on the battlefield -- a difficult and abstract task that sets the bar low because humans are comparatively bad at it.  It&#039;s harder to write an AI that is sneaky and scheming, because human sneakiness sets the bar too high.  I watched a video recently of a talk by the AI coder for &lt;i&gt;Civilization IV&lt;/i&gt;, and he pointed out that the entire diplomatic system had to be designed to avoid letting the player sucker the AIs in certain predictable ways.

So there are a lot more computers playing &lt;i&gt;Risk&lt;/i&gt; than playing &lt;i&gt;Diplomacy&lt;/i&gt; even though the latter has far simpler rules, simply because the rules focus on things that humans are really, really good at.

Decent diplomacy in computer games really requires radical innovations that we have not yet seen.  There will have to be entire new vocabulary, from ways to conduct back-and-forth conversations with the AI players along multiple axes, to ways to mark up maps and draw borders.  We&#039;re a long way off as yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do think that AI is what holds back diplomacy in games.  It&#8217;s easier to write an AI to move units on the battlefield &#8212; a difficult and abstract task that sets the bar low because humans are comparatively bad at it.  It&#8217;s harder to write an AI that is sneaky and scheming, because human sneakiness sets the bar too high.  I watched a video recently of a talk by the AI coder for <i>Civilization IV</i>, and he pointed out that the entire diplomatic system had to be designed to avoid letting the player sucker the AIs in certain predictable ways.</p>
<p>So there are a lot more computers playing <i>Risk</i> than playing <i>Diplomacy</i> even though the latter has far simpler rules, simply because the rules focus on things that humans are really, really good at.</p>
<p>Decent diplomacy in computer games really requires radical innovations that we have not yet seen.  There will have to be entire new vocabulary, from ways to conduct back-and-forth conversations with the AI players along multiple axes, to ways to mark up maps and draw borders.  We&#8217;re a long way off as yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Gil R.</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/comment-page-1/#comment-144116</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 00:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/#comment-144116</guid>
		<description>&quot;Tell him I like his book a lot. (My friend Art Eckstein recently wrote a book contra the Harris interpretation of Roman militarism.)&quot;

I haven&#039;t read Eckstein&#039;s book yet.  I&#039;d like to, but time-management dictates that I put it off until I teach a Roman history course, or WCS takes its own stab at a Rome game and I engage in some research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Tell him I like his book a lot. (My friend Art Eckstein recently wrote a book contra the Harris interpretation of Roman militarism.)&#8221;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read Eckstein&#8217;s book yet.  I&#8217;d like to, but time-management dictates that I put it off until I teach a Roman history course, or WCS takes its own stab at a Rome game and I engage in some research.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael A.</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/comment-page-1/#comment-143720</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/#comment-143720</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re welcome Jason. The intrigue parts in Rome (getting elected to the Senate and becoming emperor) are really the highlights of the game. It&#039;s an excellent Roman adventure game - if one can get past the truly awful interface to enjoy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re welcome Jason. The intrigue parts in Rome (getting elected to the Senate and becoming emperor) are really the highlights of the game. It&#8217;s an excellent Roman adventure game &#8211; if one can get past the truly awful interface to enjoy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Noah</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/comment-page-1/#comment-143701</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 19:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/#comment-143701</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the series, Troy, it&#039;s been a fascinating read. 
I too have a great fondness for the ancient period, and in looking for a strategy game that encompasses it all, I&#039;ve met only with total failure or &quot;almost there&quot; but never anything that really nails any of the periods. 
Diplomacy is my big thing, too. I want a game with a solid diplomatic model, something that makes my civilization more than just an expansionist juggernaut. I also want my civilization to feel like one, not just a set of statistics, modifiers and resources. Give the nations identity, character, personality. It&#039;s not the wars of the ancient world that interest me, but the humanity around it all. Make me feel that the barbarians of Gaul are truly unique from the Romans, for example. Not just different units with different pixels and stats. 

Reading your retrospective outlined nicely how even the best attempts fall short.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the series, Troy, it&#8217;s been a fascinating read.<br />
I too have a great fondness for the ancient period, and in looking for a strategy game that encompasses it all, I&#8217;ve met only with total failure or &#8220;almost there&#8221; but never anything that really nails any of the periods.<br />
Diplomacy is my big thing, too. I want a game with a solid diplomatic model, something that makes my civilization more than just an expansionist juggernaut. I also want my civilization to feel like one, not just a set of statistics, modifiers and resources. Give the nations identity, character, personality. It&#8217;s not the wars of the ancient world that interest me, but the humanity around it all. Make me feel that the barbarians of Gaul are truly unique from the Romans, for example. Not just different units with different pixels and stats. </p>
<p>Reading your retrospective outlined nicely how even the best attempts fall short.</p>
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		<title>By: Troy</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/comment-page-1/#comment-143675</link>
		<dc:creator>Troy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 14:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2008/04/30/no-king-but-caesar-an-epilogue/#comment-143675</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;That, of course, begs the question: what would make for a good diplomacy model in a game?&lt;/em&gt;

That&#039;s really the 64,000 dollar question, isn&#039;t it? Diplomacy is hard to model because it requires an AI that can measure expectations of gain and loss better, especially one that can accept a certain short term loss for a possible long term gain.

You can do abstract diplomacy well; I think that Civ IV has a very good model in certain respects. But I find it remarkable that little of the hardcore player driven pushes for realism and &quot;more history&quot; includes any effort to really capture the dynamism of classical diplomacy, both how uncertain it could be (Rome&#039;s reluctance to do much of anything unless forced to) and how much it covered (demands for repatriation of citizens, demanding foreign hostiles like Hannibal, regime change).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>That, of course, begs the question: what would make for a good diplomacy model in a game?</em></p>
<p>That&#8217;s really the 64,000 dollar question, isn&#8217;t it? Diplomacy is hard to model because it requires an AI that can measure expectations of gain and loss better, especially one that can accept a certain short term loss for a possible long term gain.</p>
<p>You can do abstract diplomacy well; I think that Civ IV has a very good model in certain respects. But I find it remarkable that little of the hardcore player driven pushes for realism and &#8220;more history&#8221; includes any effort to really capture the dynamism of classical diplomacy, both how uncertain it could be (Rome&#8217;s reluctance to do much of anything unless forced to) and how much it covered (demands for repatriation of citizens, demanding foreign hostiles like Hannibal, regime change).</p>
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