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	<title>Comments on: Starting at the Cliff Face</title>
	<atom:link href="http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/</link>
	<description>The Best Strategy Game Blog in My House</description>
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		<title>By: Vic Davis</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/comment-page-1/#comment-110525</link>
		<dc:creator>Vic Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/#comment-110525</guid>
		<description>Zack,
I&#039;m the last one who should open there pie hole about approachability/complexity since I couldn&#039;t get my act together to create a decent in game tutorial.  :) Although, the utility of tutorials is an argument for another time.  My only point was that people, myself included, tend to want instant knowlegde and gratification.  I think a lot of things in life require you to put some effort into them before you can succeed at them or appreciate them.  By all means make the UI and rules the best efficient and effective but don&#039;t shy away from creating &quot;complex&quot; games just because they require effort to master.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zack,<br />
I&#8217;m the last one who should open there pie hole about approachability/complexity since I couldn&#8217;t get my act together to create a decent in game tutorial.  :) Although, the utility of tutorials is an argument for another time.  My only point was that people, myself included, tend to want instant knowlegde and gratification.  I think a lot of things in life require you to put some effort into them before you can succeed at them or appreciate them.  By all means make the UI and rules the best efficient and effective but don&#8217;t shy away from creating &#8220;complex&#8221; games just because they require effort to master.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael A.</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/comment-page-1/#comment-110469</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/#comment-110469</guid>
		<description>Hmm.. I&#039;m not sure if I&#039;d rate CivIV as a &quot;middle&quot; range game. Sure - it&#039;s not War in the Pacific, but the current generation of Civ is IMO very much a part of a series (i.e., for the fans).

In board games, I often classify games by time requirement:filler (1-2 hours), medium (3-4 hours), and all nighters (6+ hours). Most (not all) of the shorter games are too &quot;casual&quot; for me, but as time goes on I find myself less and less inclined to spend the hours required for the big games. Deep strategy + 3-4 hours is a pretty certain hit with me (I&#039;m finding Twilight Struggle to be a recent hit).

With computer games I find the deciding factors being a combination of complexity (in terms of stuff to keep track of) and time. And at least on my personal scale, there aren&#039;t a lot of products that slot into the &quot;sweet spot&quot; (Armageddon Empires might be one, though).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.. I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;d rate CivIV as a &#8220;middle&#8221; range game. Sure &#8211; it&#8217;s not War in the Pacific, but the current generation of Civ is IMO very much a part of a series (i.e., for the fans).</p>
<p>In board games, I often classify games by time requirement:filler (1-2 hours), medium (3-4 hours), and all nighters (6+ hours). Most (not all) of the shorter games are too &#8220;casual&#8221; for me, but as time goes on I find myself less and less inclined to spend the hours required for the big games. Deep strategy + 3-4 hours is a pretty certain hit with me (I&#8217;m finding Twilight Struggle to be a recent hit).</p>
<p>With computer games I find the deciding factors being a combination of complexity (in terms of stuff to keep track of) and time. And at least on my personal scale, there aren&#8217;t a lot of products that slot into the &#8220;sweet spot&#8221; (Armageddon Empires might be one, though).</p>
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		<title>By: Zack</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/comment-page-1/#comment-110426</link>
		<dc:creator>Zack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/#comment-110426</guid>
		<description>Call me lazy if you will, but I have a life and a 50+ hr/week job and there are millions of potential customers like me. If you can&#039;t hook me early, you won&#039;t hook me at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call me lazy if you will, but I have a life and a 50+ hr/week job and there are millions of potential customers like me. If you can&#8217;t hook me early, you won&#8217;t hook me at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Vic Davis</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/comment-page-1/#comment-110313</link>
		<dc:creator>Vic Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 01:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/#comment-110313</guid>
		<description>I say hooray for complexity! Hard core gamers have a big booming voice but I think the range of strategy games out there fits the market&#039;s needs pretty well.  On the low end you have casual puzzle games which scratch the strategy itch a bit.  In the middle you have games like Civ. that give you some leeway to determine how much complexity you want to handle and on the far side you have War in the Pacific type games. 

I never understand people complaining that Dominions is too complex.  Intimidating?  Yes, but the beauty of Dominions is that it isn&#039;t really as complex as it is deep.  The primary actions are build army, move army, cast spell and forge items.  The intricacies of doing those things well is what makes the game difficult to master.

How much of this complaining about complexity is just due to natural human laziness and/or resistance to learning something new?  I&#039;m not arguing for overly complex games mind you but I don&#039;t think we are anywhere near having most strategy games resemble WitP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say hooray for complexity! Hard core gamers have a big booming voice but I think the range of strategy games out there fits the market&#8217;s needs pretty well.  On the low end you have casual puzzle games which scratch the strategy itch a bit.  In the middle you have games like Civ. that give you some leeway to determine how much complexity you want to handle and on the far side you have War in the Pacific type games. </p>
<p>I never understand people complaining that Dominions is too complex.  Intimidating?  Yes, but the beauty of Dominions is that it isn&#8217;t really as complex as it is deep.  The primary actions are build army, move army, cast spell and forge items.  The intricacies of doing those things well is what makes the game difficult to master.</p>
<p>How much of this complaining about complexity is just due to natural human laziness and/or resistance to learning something new?  I&#8217;m not arguing for overly complex games mind you but I don&#8217;t think we are anywhere near having most strategy games resemble WitP.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Au</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/comment-page-1/#comment-110294</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/#comment-110294</guid>
		<description>I find that this phenomenon is particularly an issue in multi-player games, which is to say that unless you start at the beginning (or even in the beta), it can be difficult to break in later.  Consider that for MMOGs, I feel like I&#039;ve been out of the loop long enough that I no longer feel comfortable just jumping in and playing.  Part of this has to do with the jargon, but also with the world knowledge that only comes from having played.

Even less involved games like Team Fortress 2 or Company of Heroes have barriers to entry, mostly socially dictated, but also in combination with things like map mastery and expected behaviors.  This is one of the reasons why I like playing with friends, who are generally more forgiving when I don&#039;t have perfect navigational sense for a map that I haven&#039;t played before.

The other big problem, and I suspect this is more of an issue for sports game in particular, is the lack of useful tutorials or introductions.  I may know the rules of baseball, that&#039;s not the same as understanding the game mechanics of how to hit the ball or throw it, many of which are borrowed from earlier games, and which the game often expects the player to understand a priori.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find that this phenomenon is particularly an issue in multi-player games, which is to say that unless you start at the beginning (or even in the beta), it can be difficult to break in later.  Consider that for MMOGs, I feel like I&#8217;ve been out of the loop long enough that I no longer feel comfortable just jumping in and playing.  Part of this has to do with the jargon, but also with the world knowledge that only comes from having played.</p>
<p>Even less involved games like Team Fortress 2 or Company of Heroes have barriers to entry, mostly socially dictated, but also in combination with things like map mastery and expected behaviors.  This is one of the reasons why I like playing with friends, who are generally more forgiving when I don&#8217;t have perfect navigational sense for a map that I haven&#8217;t played before.</p>
<p>The other big problem, and I suspect this is more of an issue for sports game in particular, is the lack of useful tutorials or introductions.  I may know the rules of baseball, that&#8217;s not the same as understanding the game mechanics of how to hit the ball or throw it, many of which are borrowed from earlier games, and which the game often expects the player to understand a priori.</p>
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		<title>By: State of Sports Games : buttonmashing.com</title>
		<link>http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/comment-page-1/#comment-110287</link>
		<dc:creator>State of Sports Games : buttonmashing.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/11/08/starting-at-the-cliff-face/#comment-110287</guid>
		<description>[...] today I also came across this post from Zack Hiwiller (via a long list of places, originating with Troy) about the State of Sports Games: How many people out there watch and enjoy football without having [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] today I also came across this post from Zack Hiwiller (via a long list of places, originating with Troy) about the State of Sports Games: How many people out there watch and enjoy football without having [...]</p>
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